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EPISODE 11: Engineers & Financiers (w/ Fintech Recruiter Hugh Norton- Smith)

The Startup Stack
EPISODE 11: Engineers & Financiers (w/ Fintech Recruiter Hugh Norton- Smith)

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We’re kicking off the new year with a conversation about all things fintech. Louis is joined by an expert, Hugh Norton-Smith, whose executive recruiting firm Intersection Growth Partners works with both incumbent financial institutions and fintech up-and-comers. Hugh has an insider’s perspective on what went on in 2020  — and what’s next. 

“Incumbent financial services companies are having their own Kodak moment right now. And I think all of them are thinking pretty hard about innovation.”

Hugh Norton-Smith

🎙 Highlights Include

  • Hugh’s unusual path to executive recruitment 
  • The convergence of old and new world financial services companies 
  • Segmentation in the recruiting industry 
  • When to hire an executive recruiter
  • Why incumbent institutions are having their “Kodak moment”

This Week’s Guest

Hugh Norton-Smith on The Startup Stack

Hugh Norton-Smith

Founder @ Intersection Growth Partners

Hugh Norton-Smith is Founder of Intersection Growth Partners, a San Francisco-based executive search firm focussed specifically on fintech. Intersection builds out leadership teams for scrappy startups, incumbent banks working on digital transformation, as well as the investors into fintech. .

The Startup Stack’s Host
This image has an empty alt attribute; its file name is louis-1024x1002.png

Louis Beryl

CEO, Co-Founder of Rocketplace

Rocketplace is a curated marketplace of high quality professional service providers. A 3x founder, investor, and board member, Louis began his tech career as a partner at Andreessen Horowitz. When he’s not working or podcasting, Louis enjoys cooking for his family. His pizza, he’d like you to know, is incredible. 

Full Episode Transcript

Hugh Norton-Smith: Why did the scarecrow get the job?

Louis Beryl: Tell us.

Hugh Norton-Smith: He was outstanding in his field?

Louis Beryl: Hello and welcome to The Startup Stack. I’m your host, Louis Beryl. This week we’re talking to Hugh Norton-Smith, Founder and Partner at Intersection Growth Partners about all things Executive Recruiting. Full transparency: We actually recorded this conversation over the summer. But for reasons I’ll explain, now feels like the perfect time to be releasing it. As a recruiter, Hugh splits his time between two very different worlds: The world of incumbent financial institutions and the one coming up to challenge it – fintech. You might call it the old world and the new one. So who could be better to talk to about the year to come? We talked a lot about what the next five years will look like in finance. We also covered topics like:  What is Executive Recruiting? What’s it like to run a company that specializes in it? And when is it time to hire one? Plus, why working with a larger recruiting firm often isn’t the right way to go. Let’s get into it!

Louis Beryl: Hugh, thank you for joining us on The Startup Stack podcast.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Louis, thanks for having me.

Louis Beryl: You’re the co-founder of Intersection Growth Partners and you’re one of the partners at the company. Tell us a little bit about what Intersection is.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yes, we’re an executive search firm which builds out leadership teams for FinTech. Louis, I know this is a space you lived in for some time given your Earnest heritage. I suspect the phrase FinTech gives you a degree of PTSD. Anyway, Intersection is based in the Bay Area, although I have to say our San Francisco office is at this stage admittedly looking a little bit dusty. And we launched at the end of 2018. And in terms of what we do, we work with a whole bunch of really interesting growth stage FinTechs. We work with incumbent banks, asset managers and insurers that are doing interesting stuff in and around innovation. As well as some of the kind of big venture firms that invest actively into FinTech. And we started the business because essentially there was a gap in the marketplace for a search firm that lived and breathed FinTech. But we also saw that the old world of financial services which I came out of, was rapidly converging on the new world. And I thought that there was an interesting opportunity sitting in the middle and cross-pollinate the most talented folks.

Louis Beryl: Yeah, you know, it’s fascinating what Intersection does. And I was wondering if we could take a step back. And we’re talking about executive recruiting. You know, when you think about your career, when did you know you wanted to be an executive recruiter? When did you even first hear about executive recruiting?

Hugh Norton-Smith: I have to confess, I fell into the industry like a fair few folks do. I had a humanities degree move back to London, having lived in Australia for some years prior to that and was somewhat directionless and really felt like I wanted to do something in and around financial services because at that time it was such a hot area in London. But I wanted to do something that also leveraged what I enjoyed most, which was interacting with really interesting people. And so I started in London, originally relocated to New York. I’ve been in the industry for about 15 years. Had a brief detour as a founder of a now defunct seed stage HR tech company. But other than that, again, of being a career executive recruiter originally with a focus on investment management, mainly in and around the kind of zany, exciting world of hedge funds. And um to your earlier point, I’m one of the rare beasts who’s grown up in the executive recruiting industry. Many others make a professional pivot into it in their 30s or 40s after working in banking or management consulting or similar. And I think there are benefits to both backgrounds and search coming out of industry gives you a degree of credibility with some clients. In my case, as an executive search lifer, at the risk of being a little bit self-promoting, I think it gives you a stronger sense for the discipline of executive search. You become a really strong practitioner of it.

Louis Beryl: Yeah. You also had some startup experience in there. And do you think that that experience makes you a better exec recruiter working with other entrepreneurs?

Hugh Norton-Smith: I believe so. I mean, first of all, we work with a lot of early stage companies, founders, entrepreneurs. I know what it’s like to be in their shoes. The daily struggles of raising capital building teams, evangelizing a difficult mission. So I think that’s helped build a degree of empathy and hopefully credibility with that community. This is now my second turn as a founder. And certainly it was very much a trial by tribulation originally. And I think we’ve had a degree more success with the new business, specifically because I went through that initial steep learning curve.

Louis Beryl: Did you ever think after the first business oh that’s it I’ll never start another company?

Hugh Norton-Smith: Oh, absolutely. I spent a couple of months in a fetal position. Thinking eeally very hard about, you know, doing something altogether, more altogether more healthy, like becoming a teacher. But I think, look when you started a business and you’ve grown something, you’ve got the notice of clients. There’s a huge degree of pride and excitement around it. And I think if one has to continue to do something, as hackneyed as this sounds, it’s actually building enterprise value is something which is durable versus being just another cog in the wheel. So I really wanted to do the final thing again, albeit in a business that I knew really, really well.

Louis Beryl: I’d love to dive a little bit more into the founding story of Intersection. You know, a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs themselves of all types of businesses. Some of them might even be thinking about building their own executive recruiting firms. And so I’d love to hear a little bit about the beginning. Clearly, you were a founder from your previous experience, but how did you and your co-founders come together? How did you know that it was the right time to start your own firm? I’d love to hear about some of the challenges from the really early days.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yes. So my co-founders, um, one of my co-founders, Scott Fletcher and I had worked together for a number of years in New York with a different organization and they both moved out to the West Coast about the same time. And so we had a longstanding, very trusted relationship. And I think we wanted to get the band back together. We intentionally wanted to build out a broader founding team. So we brought on board a third co-founder. And as it relates to challenges since starting, I mean, I think we had an incredibly exciting first full year in 2019. 2020, as you’d expect, has been interesting to say the least. I think we’re out of the doldrums at the moment. But like any small business, we are facing all sorts of interesting hurdles as a function of the current environment.

Louis Beryl: You know, as I think about starting my own companies, there have been these moments of deep despair, thinking this is never going to work. But, you know, there are also the moments where you’re like, you know, I really think that this is going to be a successful company. We’re really onto something. I was wondering if you could tell us any moments where it all clicked for you. And, you know, I know Intersection has a focus on FinTech where you could kind of sense, hey, we’re really doing something different and I really think this is going to work and be a great company.

Hugh Norton-Smith: So you bring up a great point. I mean, one of the interesting things about starting your own business, right, is you have this incredible level of personal emotional volatility and it changes on the day to day basis. Right. You have days where you’re pumping your fist in excitement. You have other days where you’re in the depths of despondency because something hasn’t worked out. So there are extraordinarily ordinary highs and lows. I think we found pretty quickly that the message of having a deep vertical specialization in FinTech was one that was attractive to our clients. And so from day one, I think our conversations were very positive. When we started the company, the first couple of months were quiet, but I think we began to build a reputation. We began to build our network across the industry. And so I think things began to pick up really in the second quarter of 2019 and things have continued to head in a pretty nice path.

Louis Beryl: Yeah. You know, as a former financial services executive myself, I have always found that financial services as an industry really has specific challenges. And when you think about wanting to recruit executives, you want them to have specific experiences, a specific network, specific understandings. Actually, I find it the value proposition of Intersection to really be spot on that I would want to work with a search firm that has deep knowledge in this, that has connections into the industry that I would be meeting with executives with that, you know, that experience. My question for you is it seems so obvious. Why are you one of the few firms doing it? Why aren’t all executive search firms specialized by industry as opposed to what we typically see where they specialize by function? What do you think? That’s the case?

Hugh Norton-Smith: So the big search firms all do have a sort of make sure functional specializations and vertical specializations. Now on the boutique side, as far as we’re aware, there is no company that solely does FinTech, at least in the United States.

Louis Beryl: Cause we’ve seen it in venture firms for example, there’s been a whole proliferation of venture firms specializing by industry, a number that do FinTech specifically now and have a lot of success.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, that’s right. You’ve got QED and Ribbit. You know, Andreessen, that’s a pretty separate FinTech effort. And yes, so I think it’s very natural for us, a very natural gap to focus on in the marketplace. It’s also an industry which is rapidly institutionalizing and if you think about a lot of these growth stage organizations, which are started by predominantly founders, you come out of products and engineering backgrounds, people who don’t have a huge amount of experience in this very idiosyncratic, highly-regulated industry. It’s really important to be able to build around these people executive leadership teams that can help them internationalize, compete in the sandbox with these big institutions. And so for us, you know, a ton of the work we’ve done on the growth side has been finding chief risk officers, head of policy, chief compliance officers, all of these people who bring a level of real financial services acumen to buttress these kinds of visionary founders. But getting back to, you know, whether or not there are other FinTech search professionals out there. Yeah, I mean, there are people within the financial services practices — your Spencer Stuart, Hydrate, Russell Reynolds — all the other big search firms that, you know, do this part time. But our focus is really on living and breathing it with a huge degree of passion.

Louis Beryl: That’s great. I’d love to get into the nuts and bolts for a second of executive recruiting. As you think about meeting founders and CEOs, if you were going to give them advice or we were going to talk about it for a moment — when do you think the right moment is for a company to hire you? And I imagine that out there, sometimes you meet companies and maybe they feel like they’re a little bit too early to be working with you. Or actually sometimes you feel like, gosh, you guys are a year or two late. You should have hired us a year ago for this we would have really would have helped you. I wonder how you think through that. What advice would you give to other founders out there?

Hugh Norton-Smith: We’ve worked with companies the seed and stage A. Those are typically companies where they are well known founders and have done pretty sizable raises for that seed in that A. But typically it’s the B stage and beyond, particularly as those executive functions become more important and frankly, they end up having more money to spend on things like recruiting versus just shaking the trees of their own network. I don’t think there are many times when we can be brought in too late. I mean, typically we’re brought in when the CEO or the internal talent teams have exhausted their own networks or are simply overloaded and need a bunch of leverage. But I think we can be helpful at a bunch of different stages. Obviously, it’s much harder to do our job if we’ve taken over from a previous search firm and where they’ve called hundreds and hundreds of people already or just manage the process really poorly. We find that it’s much more likely to find a successful outcome if we’re hitting the market with a really exciting, super fresh message where people are genuinely intrigued versus I heard about this search a couple of months ago from some dude at basket weaving search partners. But again, we’ve worked at a bunch of different stages

Louis Beryl: For founders very often when they’re thinking about hiring for any service, it’s very normal that they might meet a couple of different service providers. So I imagine, you know, when you’re first meeting a potential new client, maybe they’re talking to you. They’re also talking to a couple of your competitors in the industry. What advice would you give to a founder in how to evaluate a potential partner to work with? You know, what are the questions they should be asking? What are the things that they should be looking out for?

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, Lewis, this is a great question. And I would say it’s very rare that we’re not competing against a couple of search providers. I think the most important thing and I’ll touch on a couple of things, but I think the most important thing for hiring managers to figure out is who is actually doing the search at the search firm. We’ve spoken to a ton of clients who are sold on the relationships, the credibility, the track record of some very distinguished senior partner at a search firm without realizing that the heavy lifting is being done by a junior person and the team essentially is being farmed out. And I mean that, you know, everything from market research to calling candidates, interviewing them gets outsourced to someone else in this sort of super, highly leveraged model where they’re not particularly seasoned. So I think, again, as is hiring as a hiring company, I’d make sure that there is no one behind the curtain. And the consultant who pitches you is actually doing the project soup to nuts. I mean, you’re paying a ton of money on this chunky retainer with executive search and you deserve a ton of attention. Service providers are an extension of your brands and with the right person on it, not the right company. I mean, the company doesn’t matter. It depends on the consultant. It’ll generate a very different outcome. I mean, one thing as an example is that we care deeply about constant referencing of candidates. We don’t introduce people unless we have at least two reads on them from peers or former colleagues or people we trust and respect like yourself. Louis.

Louis Beryl: Yeah, I get a lot of those from you.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, exactly. And frankly, someone who is new to the space or hasn’t been in the industry very long to develop those trusted relationships so I can get the real skinny just isn’t gonna be able to do that. So I think it’s really important to figure out who’s doing the search, doing the actual search. I think the other thing, and this is a little bit more nebulous, is to figure out whether or not the company is working with how to put it, whether or not the talent transactors or they want to play a more thoughtful advisory role. And I think as a search firm with really deep domain knowledge like Intersection, we get pretty unique insights into what’s going on in the market. Right. You know, the reputation of different firms and executives, recent hires, you know, the culture of different organizations, any pitfalls about them? And I think we can be a really helpful, powerful resource and a sounding board versus just as people who lob over resumes. And so our best relationships are with clients and partners where we can add value. I think about like again, fundraising, partnerships, new ways to pay the executive team. And you really want to, in my opinion, lean away from the search firm, which is like, hey, we can just crank over resumes without a whole bunch of thought. I think finally to round this out, it’s really worth pushing on search firms commitment to diversity. Obviously a hugely important topic these days. You know, maybe I’m overselling what we do, but executive hiring is literally transformational to many organizations. And solving for hiring from underrepresented groups is not only the right thing to do, but it can be incredibly impactful. But it’s easy for search firms to say they care about diversity and that it’s a core value that you can see on the website. I personally despise that kind of banal phrase. But it’s really also worth asking for specific stats over the past year, since the inception of the company, to demonstrate that this core value actually translates into real results. 

Louis Beryl: I imagine that it’s really top of mind for a lot of the leadership teams that you work with. They want to see a diverse set of candidates. They want to understand that you have a diverse network. As you said, you’re an extension of their brand if diversity is a value that is important to these CEOs. One of the only ways to execute on that from a leadership perspective is for them to be seeing a diverse set of candidates. And so they really want to make sure that the partners that they’re working with are committed to that. So I think that’s great.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, 100%. It is one of the universal and rightly so concerns of every client we interact with.

Louis Beryl: I’d love to hear about other trends that you’re seeing over the last six or 12 months. You know, maybe we could start with FinTech specific trends. What things are you seeing in how people are building leadership teams, the types of companies? I’d love to get your thoughts as someone in the trenches day to day.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah. So I think as it relates to FinTech specifically, this is obviously a burgeoning area. I can see why folks like yourself, Louis got into it a number of years ago. I think that the current crisis we have is going to be an accelerant to tech adoption broadly and FinTech more specifically. So I think there’s an incredible secular tailwind there, despite all of the broad pain you’re seeing in the wider marketplace. I think as it relates to trends in FinTech and hiring or things that we found interesting is that, you know, the incumbent financial services companies really have got they’ve sort of seen their own Kodak moment. Right. And I think all of them are thinking pretty hard about innovation. And in some cases, this is just window dressing. But other organizations, it’s really sort of like a central commitment to changing their businesses. So a lot of these firms we’re finding are looking to hire people who have a growth mindset, people who understand all of these esoteric areas like crypto. And so sort of being able to hire people out of the new world has been for us a very sort of powerful trend we’ve witnessed and want to get involved in. The other pieces, again, as I mentioned, the growth stage companies really want to hire people out of Goldman and J.P. Morgan who can burnish our existing team and bring a whole bunch of other skills that don’t currently exist on their side.

Louis Beryl: Which way do you find it more difficult to recruit the candidate? Is it more difficult to recruit the candidate into the large organization, or is it more difficult to recruit the candidate out of the large organization and into one of the FinTech companies? Or is it kind of it’s a two way street, actually. People are just moving by cars, passing on the Golden Gate Bridge.

Hugh Norton-Smith: I think it’s I think the answer is it depends. Right. I mean, if you’re hiring someone out of Amex or Capital One or Goldman. What you get a probe on is whether or not the person really has an entrepreneurial mindset and whether or not they can get their arms around compensation, for instance, which is much more likely to be weighted towards equity versus cash. Because, look, everybody in traditional financial services kind of aspirationally has some desire to go and work at a stripe or applied or wherever just because it’s seen as sexy and interesting and new and novel. But at the same time, for us, we need to screen very hard about that cultural transition. But going in the other direction, I think, you know, some people in this marketplace want the reassurance of being aligned with a big established organization, particularly with that firm isn’t going about digital transformation in a sort of half hearted sort of extrinsic fashion versus doing it sort of intrinsically because it’s valuable for the business.

Louis Beryl: Do you think that’s one of the big trends in the COVID-19 world that you’re seeing, that actually there is a trend of executives looking for larger, more stable companies. Or are there other trends you’re noticing? It’s such a big change, I’d be fascinated to know. I remember when I was doing my executive searches, we’d go out to dinner together and we’d meet the team and I’d go out with their families. I mean, how do people even get to build those relationships right now? Must be very difficult.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, I mean, it’s been a total sea change. I mean, for me, you’re seeing me right now sitting in my very shabby garage, but I think it’s been kind of cool to meet people at home. Right. It really humanizes people seeing them in their man cave or out sitting in the sunshine on the deck wearing a T-shirt.

Louis Beryl: Have you had any good stories of a COVID like a, you know, you heard about a client with, like a COVID Zoom debacle or anything like that?

Hugh Norton-Smith: I mean, I’ve heard anecdotally about people, you know, family members walking naked behind a camera and stuff like that.

Louis Beryl: You’re hired.

Hugh Norton-Smith: I mean, one of my, one of my first questions with people when I’m meeting them over a video “Dude are you wearing pants?” But it’s always worrying if they don’t stand up because the suspicion is that they may have been fibbing.

Louis Beryl: Yeah, my head of design has a real problem with jean shorts. He has like 100 pairs of jean shorts. He’s always wearing jean shorts. He makes them.

Hugh Norton-Smith: I lived in Boston for a year or two and every other person was like jean shorts and Bruins shirts. It’s not a good look.

Louis Beryl: He’s from Canada so I give him a pass. 

Hugh Norton-Smith: Listen, in any event, for most of my career, you are putting on a suit. It felt like putting on a suit of armor every morning. It was kind of distancing, meeting people in your offices or fancy coffee places, handing out a business card. It was always kind of a bit of a weird, very formal ritual and a bit kind of alienating. And I found that like it’s counterintuitive, given the meetings are now abstracted through video. But I feel like I’m building a better, more natural relationship with candidates and often with our clients that feels kind of, again, more human, a bit more trusted. And, you know, the risk of sounding a bit like an Instagram caption or something, it’s just really fun being your true goofy self with kids wandering around in the background and such. You know, and it’s been interesting seeing as well the different attitudes the different firms have in our space. So some are completely unable to push the trigger on hiring without seeing people face to face. They’re completely paralyzed, but others are continuing to hire an extraordinary clip making tons of unusually large hiring decisions without meeting someone face to face. And if someone told me that four months ago, I would have been completely baffled. But it’s been amazing how quick the transformation has been.

Louis Beryl: Hugh, as I listen to some of your stories and all your experience, one of the things I was thinking about is if you could tell me, how the industry changed over the last ten, fifteen years since you started?

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, I mean, so this is interesting. I mean, executive search has been around for 50 plus years, and I think it sprung originally out of some of the big management consulting companies. And a lot of it whether or not you think about the fee structures or the search process, it’s sort of the same. And the industry if you look at the revenues of it as a whole, are dominated by a handful of these large companies that do all sectors or functional areas. But a couple of things spring to mind. I mean, when we started in the business, the best data we had on candidates was stored on these really clunky, hyper proprietary databases that the search firms had. And I remember when you go into pictures, it was always a point of pride to say, look, we have over one hundred thousand people in our database as if sheer quantity actually matters. And the dirty secret was that half the data was like 20 years old. You know, as a practitioner, you’d realize that, you know, many of the people in the system are actually deceased. But the other way the data was stored was that it was in the head of a recruiter who happened to be mega networked. This sort of recruiters cerebral Rolodex, this crappy Microsoft access database has become pretty irrelevant since candidates are now curating their own profiles on LinkedIn, they’re on corporate websites and are on conference lists. Yeah, you’ve got now access to much richer, much cleaner, more current data. Prospective candidate discovery has kind of gone away as part of what we bring to the table. I think what we add is the candidate engagement piece as well as the candidate evaluation piece, which is like selling through the noise. It’s evangelizing a company, it’s shepherding someone through the process, and it’s being sympathetic at all times to human frailties, to egos, anxieties, ambitions, families that need to relocate and all these other things. And I think a good search firm is also figuring out whether a candidate is truly excellent by these constant referencing, likely before, again, they’ve even called a target candidate rather than just parroting back a LinkedIn profile or a resume. So the other changes are a bit more prosaic. We can’t ask candidates that much about compensation. The Zoom meetings we’ve talked about. And I think finally, just to run things out, there are a lot of clients that seem to be gravitating towards working with highly specialized boutiques versus large search firms. Specifically because the boutiques are going to give them more attention and likely more domain knowledge.

Louis Beryl: I think in financial services in particular, where you specialize, there must be just a sea change in the geographies. You know, you even started your career in London. I’m sure you spent time in New York. And I think if you went back 15 years, that really was probably the epicenter. Certainly New York and London are still big draws, but we have the Bay Area, we have other areas that clients you must work for. And I imagine that geographic diversity is different than it was 15 years ago.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Yeah, it’s really changed in a big way. So using hedge funds as an example, they were always predominantly based in London, Greenwich, Connecticut, New York, and a handful of other outliers like Citadel up in Chicago. But the majority of them were in those centers. What you’re seeing in FinTech is it is much more evenly distributed around the world. And interestingly enough, San Francisco, which never really had a particularly large classic financial services world, has become, I think, more exciting for FinTech than almost any other location in the world. So you have a bunch of really interesting world beating companies in places like Square, Plaid, Stripe to name a few. And I think what concerns me about somewhere like New York is you had this really dominant traditional financial services industry in all the classic banks and asset managers. And a lot of the high fee business is going away and hopefully it’s going to be replaced by FinTech. But I think in New York’s case, there are some really interesting businesses out there. It’s going to be a real stretch to imagine them contributing to the local economy in the same way that classic financial services did.

Louis Beryl: Hugh, thank you so much for this. I wanted to transition to one last question. And I was hoping you could give one last piece of advice to the entrepreneur who is potentially entering your field. You know, they’re starting their career as an executive recruiter. Maybe they’re thinking about starting their own firm just like you did. What would be the advice that you gave to them?

Hugh Norton-Smith: Oh, man. I mean, I’ve made a ton of toe curling mistakes earlier in my career. And this is one of those businesses where you can continually improve aspects of your approach. So I’ve got a couple of quick thoughts on things I’d advise some on beginning in search, I think, you know, number one, it would be don’t treat candidates like a fee. Too many recruiters, essentially recruit them, use candidates or they treat them like kind of grist for the mill. And so I think it’s really important that you look after the candidates, you treat them respectfully. That means giving them super honest feedback, helping them think about their career generally and just kind of going beyond the call of duty. So first thing is actually integrity towards them and just don’t be a douche because essentially they’re the lifeblood to your business. And I talk to people every day who are like us talking with this recruiter and they never called me back. And I think that’s bad for our industry. And it’s about you’re going to develop a bad reputation. Funnily enough, there’s a guy I used to work with who used to tell candidates that he wanted to be their agent. And like, I think that’s a little bit of an overstatement. And I’m not sure the sentiment was entirely true. But I really like the idea of becoming an advocate to both sides of the platforms of the clients and the candidates as well, even if the clients are the ones who are actually paying the bills.

Louis Beryl: Yeah, that’s awesome here. And it’s really great advice. I just want to thank you again for being our guest today on “The Startup Stack”. Thank you so much Hugh. This was awesome.

Hugh Norton-Smith: Louis, it was my pleasure.

Louis Beryl: That was great and really fun. Hugh had some great advice. Such a nice guy. Couldn’t have a cleaner garage overall, just an awesome conversation. For more on Hugh and our conversation today, visit Remember, we have another episode coming next week, so make sure to subscribe to “The Starter Stack”, on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to them. Thanks again for joining.

Announcer: The Startup Stack. Written and edited by Hannah Levy, produced by Leah Jackson. 

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